Discussion With Diamond Canada

Any DA62 related topics

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mfdutra
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by mfdutra »

My C053 was delivered without the radar, but "radar ready" for the GWX75. Interestingly they took the payment, which suggests to me they should be close, otherwise they put themselves up to some liability. If months go by and I don't get my radar, I'll have no option other than suing them.
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Boatguy
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by Boatguy »

mfdutra wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:25 pm My C053 was delivered without the radar, but "radar ready" for the GWX75. Interestingly they took the payment, which suggests to me they should be close, otherwise they put themselves up to some liability. If months go by and I don't get my radar, I'll have no option other than suing them.
I have the same situation and I thought it was poor judgement on the part of DAI to collect payment for something they have have not and cannot delivery.
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by MackAttack »

I am in the same boat. We can share legal expenses if need be! Let’s hope their optimism is not unfounded …
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chili4way
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by chili4way »

Would you be happier if Diamond offered to refund your radar money and let you buy it later at the market price and pay additional installation costs? You could always sell your plane and return to the order queue once everything is 100% ready.

It seems Diamond is attempting to be flexible, given the problematic certification delays with TCCA. Everyone - especially Diamond - would be happier if Phase III was certified.

I also don't question TCCA's intentions -- to make sure the aircraft they certify are the safest aircraft in the skies to protect the pilot, their passengers, and the public they fly over. Why should there be a difference between transport-category and personal aircraft, especially when only more experienced and highly trained pilots fly transport-category planes? How safe is "safe enough" (especially when it comes to software, e.g., MCAS)?

What TCCA considers acceptable risk for the greater good might differ from your personal assessment.

This talk of suing Diamond has undoubtedly cut several weeks off the DA62 Phase III certification schedule. It's always just been a matter of motivation.
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mfdutra
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by mfdutra »

Delay for the sake of bureaucracy is BS, in my opinion. Diamond is not certifying anything new here. The phase 3 features and the GWX 75/8000 have been certified already for YEARS in other platforms. I understand the DA50 certification taking forever, because that's a whole new airplane, with a new engine, etc. A software upgrade taking over 6 years to certify is just utterly pathetic.

I'm still under the impression they're intentionally delaying this because they had too many GWX70s in stock.
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by krellis »

chili4way wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:53 am Would you be happier if Diamond offered to refund your radar money and let you buy it later at the market price and pay additional installation costs? You could always sell your plane and return to the order queue once everything is 100% ready.

It seems Diamond is attempting to be flexible, given the problematic certification delays with TCCA. Everyone - especially Diamond - would be happier if Phase III was certified.

I also don't question TCCA's intentions -- to make sure the aircraft they certify are the safest aircraft in the skies to protect the pilot, their passengers, and the public they fly over. Why should there be a difference between transport-category and personal aircraft, especially when only more experienced and highly trained pilots fly transport-category planes? How safe is "safe enough" (especially when it comes to software, e.g., MCAS)?

What TCCA considers acceptable risk for the greater good might differ from your personal assessment.

This talk of suing Diamond has undoubtedly cut several weeks off the DA62 Phase III certification schedule. It's always just been a matter of motivation.
Part 23 and Part 25 are very different. Are you really promoting Part 25 requirements onto Part 23 aircraft? You think GA is expensive now? If you want to kill GA, this would be one way to do it.
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chili4way
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by chili4way »

No, I am not, even if it made the planes more bulletproof.
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by chili4way »

Diamond is not certifying anything new here.
Diamond isn't certifying anything; Transport Canada does the certifying. Diamond and Garmin must dance to TCCA's tune regarding requirements, specifications, testing, and interpretation. How many other Part 23 aircraft with Garmin G1000NXI integrated cockpits TCCA has previously certified is unclear. It may be new to them relative to their previous process & experience certifying Rockwell Collins cockpits for Bombardier Part 25 aircraft. The MCAS story showed certifying agencies that trusting other agencies' previous work isn't always sufficient.

I'm still under the impression they're intentionally delaying this because they had too many GWX70s in stock.
Speculation is fun. I speculate that if Diamond could ship GWX75s and Phase III, they would do so, possibly with better margins (even if the list price for the GWX75 is less than the GWX70, as I've seen suggested.) Diamond's OEM relationship with Garmin is such that they could work out a box exchange. Garmin could use those boxes to provide hardware support for the GWX70s already in the field now that these are no longer manufactured.
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by Boatguy »

chili4way wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:53 am Would you be happier if Diamond offered to refund your radar money and let you buy it later at the market price and pay additional installation costs?
I'd be happier if

a) they had completed the certification within six months of when the GWX75 was introduced, keeping Diamond current with the industry and burnishing their reputation as an innovative modern aircraft company, or

b) had charged a fee for the radar nose cone (different than non-radar) and wiring harness installation, leaving me, once it is certified, to purchase the GWX75 and have it installed at my expense by any Garmin shop (not necessarily at one of the few, far between and overbooked DSCs), thus charging me for what they delivered, not what they hope to deliver at a date uncertain.

Over commit and under deliver is never a good look.
chili4way wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:53 am This talk of suing Diamond has undoubtedly cut several weeks off the DA62 Phase III certification schedule. It's always just been a matter of motivation.
Diamond isn't going to get sued, but they also aren't enhancing their reputation by the bumbling manner in which they continue to address the wide disconnect between their marketing hype and their actual product.

It's understood that they don't control certification, but it's also understood that they control how they treat customers when they have problems. They could improve their image in the eyes of the customer if they took a more active role, anticipating the impacts that supply chain and certification issues have on their customers, and put forth solutions as soon as possible after the problem becomes known to them. This is pretty much what they did with the Austro piston/wrist pin problem and both the transparency and clear solutions delineated for each impacted owner was appreciated by owners once it was completely communicated.

It was only after pressure from buyers who's plane had already been delayed 6-9mo from the contract delivery dates, that they fumbled around for a few more months before coming up with the "radar ready" approach, which was then presented with "not to exceed" pricing. The radar nose cone as been in the IPC for a few years, the wiring harness is the same as the GWX70, yet they only began to present final pricing last month, five years after Garmin introduced the GWX75.

In flying, we always want to be "ahead of the airplane". Diamond is too often behind the airplane.
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Re: Discussion With Diamond Canada

Post by MackAttack »

Honestly, I’m ok with the “radar ready” outcome. I’m fine flying the plane is it is now; I didn’t have radar in my Cirrus and somehow survived that experience without blundering into convection … I am also ok with being more conservative on trip planning as a result for the first 100 hours or so of my time in type. Having said that, would it have been better if they could have gotten their act together faster? Sure. Would it be better if Transport Canada knew its arse from a hole in the ground? Yes.

Flying this airplane is so enjoyable, I literally don’t think about stuff like this except when I’m on the forum! :)
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