Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Discussions specific to Austro engines

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Farra
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Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by Farra »

Question: Is or has anyone run their Austro engines beyond the 1800 / 12 yr TBR? What are you using to monitor engine? Anyone have experience with Savvy managing these engines beyond TBR?

I am getting ready to purchase a new DA-62 and have also been reading much on TBO (or TBR) times, especially regarding Savvy aviation and Mike Busch. The TBO (and TBR) times seem to be completely arbitrary and unnecessary to get rid of a working part. However, elsewhere on this forum I have read that the DA-62 does not collect all the usual info (like cylinder temps i believe?) that Savvy and other engine monitoring programs like. As being a new aircraft owner, I like the thought of having experienced A&P's separate from those working on my airplane (removes conflict of interest) to assist me. Also, helping me decide what is and is not important in terms of TBO times for random things listed in maintenance manual but should be left alone.

I am working on an exhaustive budget for the airplane and am trying to figure out whether TBR at 1800 would fall under one of the mandatory items or if it follows the more conventional piston power engines that can run well beyond TBO if well maintained and monitored appropriately.

(I have also reached out to Savvy aviation to get their input on this as well. I will post their response when I get it)
(I also realize the new MSB may affect a lot of answers to this question as well)
(I could not find direct answers to this question discussed elsewhere, just hints of it. If another forum exists with this discussion, please feel free to direct me)

Thanks for all the input.
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Re: Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by chili4way »

You are asking two questions: The first is running the engine beyond 1800, and the second is running the engine beyond TBR. Yes, right now, these are the same question.

At one time, Austro was working to extend TBR beyond 1800, perhaps to 2100. Perhaps a question bout the status of this (via a Diamond Authorized Service Center) would be an helpful step to make. Since you are considering a DA62, you'll want answers for the AE330 engines. Yes, these are physically the same engines, but the accessories and operating conditions differ. (There are plenty of DAN discussions about how big these differences are and how much they should matter.)

It is Diamond's and Austro's interest to extend TBR. Now that the engines are TBR (i.e., no longer TBO), each engine Austro builds can support building a new airplane or keeping an old plane in the sky. A longer TBR means they can deliver more new airplanes.

When discussing running an Austro beyond TBR, you're unlikely to get a closed-form answer. You'll see comments about TBR not being mandatory for Part 91 operations. (So it's "legal," just like ignoring ODPs or taking off in zero-zero conditions.). Mike Busch's experience is based on spark ignition, avgas-burning, push-rod valve aviation engines. So while his philosophy may apply ("if it ain't broke, don't fix it"), the practical implications and nature of early warnings likely differ with Austro compression ignition engines. The fleets that operate large numbers of Austro engines appear to do so according to the TBR schedule.

Someone (or two) on DAN or otherwise "out there" may be a post-TBR test pilot on their own airplane (just as there may be some who buy "automotive" parts outside the authorized distribution channel). However, getting meaningful statistics to form your own conclusion will be hard. Not many people are likely to publicly notify their insurance agents that they are operating their airplanes outside manufacturer recommendations.

Expect encouragement to "go for it" and report back!
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Re: Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by Rich »

I'm guessing the tools traditionally used to assess on-plane gas-fired engine health could be problematic for the Austro. Is it practical/possible/meaningful to do compression checks and borescope examinations? Is it possible to determine if a single cylinder is "acting up" under flight conditions and can one readily determine which one it is?
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Re: Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by TimS »

Compression and borescope examinations along with many other tools, such as oil analysis, all can help determine engine health regardless of spark or compression ignition. The difference is not in the concept, but in the details of what numbers/details means. e.g. If you get AL in oil analysis for a spark ignition engine, it will mean one thing, but be completely different for a CMI/Thierlert engine versus and also for Austro engine.

In theory, the Austro should have much better data, and more granular data, and a more level firing sequence allowing for more precision to find problems. e.g. if you ever take the Advanced Pilot Seminar, APS states a flat IO-540/550 is like six engines which are close together and only loosely coupled via the case. Compare this to compression ignition engines, they are much higher RPM numbers, which means to minimize weight the tolerances for balancing the engine must be much smaller and much closer in power/sequences between each cylinder.

However, finding a mechanic who can parse the data, and know what it means, will be an issue.

Tim
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Re: Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by Rich »

In a sense it is only partly your call. Fundamentally the question is whether you can find an IA that will continue to sign it off as airworthy at annual.
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Re: Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by Colin »

Because my plane is a twin, I don't mind operating the engines past the original TBO "limit." I have a letter (or sent a letter) releasing Continental from any liability. You have to continue to replace everything (gearboxes, oil, filters) on the same schedule. I think if you don't they don't let you order parts or something. For me, nothing has changed.
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Re: Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by Farra »

Colin wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 4:32 pm Because my plane is a twin, I don't mind operating the engines past the original TBO "limit." I have a letter (or sent a letter) releasing Continental from any liability. You have to continue to replace everything (gearboxes, oil, filters) on the same schedule. I think if you don't they don't let you order parts or something. For me, nothing has changed.
What’s your TT on your engines? What are you doing to monitor your engines? Do you use any additional sources to help manage when to decide to replace vs continue using? (i.e. company for oil samples, something like Savvy Aviation, etc)
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Re: Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by Boatguy »

Note that Colin does not have Austro engines.

Savvy's work is based on the collection of a lot of engine data and now I think their second generation "AI" analysis engine. AFAIK they have no data on Austro engines. I'm pretty sure that the ECU logs, which have tons of data, are only sent to Austro when there is an issue with an engine so there is no historical database with which to do they type of analysis that Savvy has been doing on legacy engines. And even if they had it, it's not likley Austro would share the data.

You could certainly download all the ECU data and start building a history for your own engines, but I'm not sure what basis you could use to determine when parameters are trending in a manner that would require intervention.

And then there is the problem of actually receiving a replacement engine when you eventually need one. I believe the last communication from Austro was that they wanted replacement engine orders placed a year in advance. If your analysis suddenly detected your engine was headed towards failure, you might be AOG for quite awhile before you got a replacement engine.
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Re: Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by CFIDave »

If you intend to eventually fly your Austro engine(s) past TBR, I strongly suggest sending oil samples to Blackstone after every oil change -- they have considerable experience with Austro (as well as automotive/truck diesel) engines, and provide very detailed reports with great explanations of what they're seeing in each sample. They (and you) will then easily be able to monitor trends as you put more hours on the engine(s).
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Re: Maintaining Austro beyond 1800 TBR

Post by Boatguy »

There is a very long and detailed article on Savvy's data collection and analysis of legacy engine data in the March issue of COPA Pilot.
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