AE330 180hp DA42 STC
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- neema
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AE330 180hp DA42 STC
Any 42NG/42-VI (or 40NG!) owners wish there were an STC for an easy upgrade path to the 180hp "version" of the Austro hung on DA62s?
From tidbits I've gathered, engines are the same except for ECU programming (more boost) and a second oil cooler/more oil cooling, but all in the same shape of the 42-VI nacelles. DA62 has slightly larger props I think? No need to change the prop on a 42. Run the same (higher) RPM limit and
Max continuous is up from ~154 hp to 171 hp. 30 extra horsepower on climbout would be great.
It seems like all the pieces are there minus an oil cooler and nacelle change. What's left seems to be software and literature.
The ECUs and G1000 need a reflash. Dare I say the exact same software on a DA62 could be used for the ECUs? The G1000 would need to nix the aux tank indicators as 42s (at least of my vintage) don't have this.
Some flight testing to revamp Vmc, Vyse, and takeoff tables. My guess is takeoff numbers may be the same or longer because of higher Vmc, but flaps apch takeoffs will still be an option.
Exceeding Vno would be more annoying than it already is, but I'd rather have the power than not.
There are a bajillion engine mods for Beech, Cessna, and Piper product and they're drastically more involved: completely new engines, new cowlings, changes from carburetors to fuel injection. If the AE300 to AE330 upgrade existed, who would be up for it? It'd be even easier on a DA40NG. No Vmc to deal with!
From tidbits I've gathered, engines are the same except for ECU programming (more boost) and a second oil cooler/more oil cooling, but all in the same shape of the 42-VI nacelles. DA62 has slightly larger props I think? No need to change the prop on a 42. Run the same (higher) RPM limit and
Max continuous is up from ~154 hp to 171 hp. 30 extra horsepower on climbout would be great.
It seems like all the pieces are there minus an oil cooler and nacelle change. What's left seems to be software and literature.
The ECUs and G1000 need a reflash. Dare I say the exact same software on a DA62 could be used for the ECUs? The G1000 would need to nix the aux tank indicators as 42s (at least of my vintage) don't have this.
Some flight testing to revamp Vmc, Vyse, and takeoff tables. My guess is takeoff numbers may be the same or longer because of higher Vmc, but flaps apch takeoffs will still be an option.
Exceeding Vno would be more annoying than it already is, but I'd rather have the power than not.
There are a bajillion engine mods for Beech, Cessna, and Piper product and they're drastically more involved: completely new engines, new cowlings, changes from carburetors to fuel injection. If the AE300 to AE330 upgrade existed, who would be up for it? It'd be even easier on a DA40NG. No Vmc to deal with!
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Re: AE330 180hp DA42 STC
Dear Neema, this idea would have gotten me really excited before I took the exotic route.
Meanwhile, I have jumped boats and was able to measure the value of incremental and costly changes to an existing aircraft vs sell and go a different route.
From my only flights in the DA42 NG and DA 62, I think none need additional climb rate as much as the original (CDI-135) DA42-TDI did.
Their performance is balanced, I think.
Also, as you point out, the airframe is maxed out in cruise, so you would not be able to use the additional HP for faster cruise.
In my opinion, the ultimate DA42 would be the combination of the -VI airframe with the relatively lightweight CDI-155 engine. The factory should really look at that, now that TCM is also part of the group... Next best is that Crosby extend their STC to include some aerodynamic changes.
Meanwhile, I have jumped boats and was able to measure the value of incremental and costly changes to an existing aircraft vs sell and go a different route.
From my only flights in the DA42 NG and DA 62, I think none need additional climb rate as much as the original (CDI-135) DA42-TDI did.
Their performance is balanced, I think.
Also, as you point out, the airframe is maxed out in cruise, so you would not be able to use the additional HP for faster cruise.
In my opinion, the ultimate DA42 would be the combination of the -VI airframe with the relatively lightweight CDI-155 engine. The factory should really look at that, now that TCM is also part of the group... Next best is that Crosby extend their STC to include some aerodynamic changes.
- CFIDave
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Re: AE330 180hp DA42 STC
It would be trivial to load DA62 AE330 (E4C-P) software into DA42-VI AE300 (E4C) engine ECUs to increase maximum turbo boost. But unfortunately it's not straightforward because of the different size propellers (the DA62 prop is 1 inch larger diameter). So ECU control of RPM/blade angle would likely need to change, requiring new Austro engine software.
But the biggest effort would be re-certification of the airframe (new V-speeds, performance, etc.), combined with new G1000 software and avionics certification (e.g., for different max continuous power). It might also "embarrass" the performance of the DA62, which today with AE330s is only marginally better than the DA42-VI with AE300s.
But the biggest effort would be re-certification of the airframe (new V-speeds, performance, etc.), combined with new G1000 software and avionics certification (e.g., for different max continuous power). It might also "embarrass" the performance of the DA62, which today with AE330s is only marginally better than the DA42-VI with AE300s.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- ememic99
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Re: AE330 180hp DA42 STC
Then there's consumption issue - if you run the engines at optimum RPM that will mean more GPH and less range, if you run them to have same consumption sa AE330 then you'll probably get less speed.
- neema
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Re: AE330 180hp DA42 STC
Points all well taken.
Dave, I hear you on the ease of uploading ECU software. Seems like you could just... do it. Don't think anything is needed for the prop. Think of prop manufacturers that produce different prop blade and diameter configs and how you just throw it on the plane and governor does it's thing to command RPM. Example: MT vs Hartzell 5 blade props on a Pilatus. 2 different diameters, no other changes
I understand the "DA62 is king" idea from Diamond's sales standpoint, but think of short and long body Bonanzas. Short body 33/35 series Bonanzas with the same engine as the 36 series are faster. the 42 and 62 share the same predicament: same engine under almost identical cowling--why not get the extra juice from it if it's already certified?
Antoine, I live vicariously through your EA400 adventure. It looks like an awesome machine (please keep posting cool content!). Regarding the lighter engines--yes, the Austro is an anvil for the power produced, but there are already hundreds of DA42NG and 42VIs out there. If it were an affordable STC (software, larger oil cooler) with a days worth of work, I'm sure many would go that route.
To the comment on having balanced power--I disagree. I think more power is always nice. Nice for peace of mind, nice for climb performance to get to higher TAS, nice for OEI performance. Let's not forget it's also fun.
Emir, it's probably too much work to reprogram prop RPM tables in the ECUs, so no doubt there may be some inefficiency. We all still have the choice to dial power back to lower power and higher prop blade pitch if that's our choice.
Just seems an easy-ish STC to make.
Dave, I hear you on the ease of uploading ECU software. Seems like you could just... do it. Don't think anything is needed for the prop. Think of prop manufacturers that produce different prop blade and diameter configs and how you just throw it on the plane and governor does it's thing to command RPM. Example: MT vs Hartzell 5 blade props on a Pilatus. 2 different diameters, no other changes
I understand the "DA62 is king" idea from Diamond's sales standpoint, but think of short and long body Bonanzas. Short body 33/35 series Bonanzas with the same engine as the 36 series are faster. the 42 and 62 share the same predicament: same engine under almost identical cowling--why not get the extra juice from it if it's already certified?
Antoine, I live vicariously through your EA400 adventure. It looks like an awesome machine (please keep posting cool content!). Regarding the lighter engines--yes, the Austro is an anvil for the power produced, but there are already hundreds of DA42NG and 42VIs out there. If it were an affordable STC (software, larger oil cooler) with a days worth of work, I'm sure many would go that route.
To the comment on having balanced power--I disagree. I think more power is always nice. Nice for peace of mind, nice for climb performance to get to higher TAS, nice for OEI performance. Let's not forget it's also fun.
Emir, it's probably too much work to reprogram prop RPM tables in the ECUs, so no doubt there may be some inefficiency. We all still have the choice to dial power back to lower power and higher prop blade pitch if that's our choice.
Just seems an easy-ish STC to make.
- TimS
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Re: AE330 180hp DA42 STC
Why not put a larger prop on?
If you are going through all this trouble, you may as well do it right.
Tim
If you are going through all this trouble, you may as well do it right.
Tim
- Rich
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Re: AE330 180hp DA42 STC
With regards to the prop, consider this: When Powerflow became available for the DA40, Hartzell wouldn't certify the aluminum prop in then current use in the DA40 and had to come up with a different one. MT was fine with the increased Horsepower in that case but did have to OK it nonetheless. Simply assuming the same prop is OK, or the best one, when bumping up the HP is a bit suspect.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
- neema
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Re: AE330 180hp DA42 STC
Tim I think the idea is that there isn't that much trouble an owner would have to go through. Just do a software update and maybe swap an oil cooler out for a larger one.
Rich, good catch. A little tough to tell on the EASA type certificate, but I think the 190cm MT prop on 42-VIs and 194cm prop on 62s fall under the 132kw/177 hp max power category. May be okay there.
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Re: AE330 180hp DA42 STC
I would think there would be a lot of cooling problems if you just re-programmed the ECUs.
As a parallel example, the Thielert 2.0S are same engine as Thielert 2.0 but with different engine mapping to increase max power by about 15%. But even with an upgraded cooling system, the 2.0S can't climb at 100% in ambient temps over about 30C without overheating.
As a parallel example, the Thielert 2.0S are same engine as Thielert 2.0 but with different engine mapping to increase max power by about 15%. But even with an upgraded cooling system, the 2.0S can't climb at 100% in ambient temps over about 30C without overheating.
- CFIDave
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Re: AE330 180hp DA42 STC
The radiator on the DA62 E4P-C engine is identical to that of the DA42-VI E4-C engine.
The only real difference I can see between the 2 engines (I've owned both) is that my 2013 DA42-VI had an air-cooled gearbox (with an attached air duct and external cooling fins), whereas my 2017 DA62 engines have liquid-cooled gearboxes plumbed into the same system that cools the diesel engines. I believe this running change was made to *ALL* Austro engines, not just those of the DA62.
The only real difference I can see between the 2 engines (I've owned both) is that my 2013 DA42-VI had an air-cooled gearbox (with an attached air duct and external cooling fins), whereas my 2017 DA62 engines have liquid-cooled gearboxes plumbed into the same system that cools the diesel engines. I believe this running change was made to *ALL* Austro engines, not just those of the DA62.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI