gcampbe2 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:32 pm
3) Impact to DA62 delivery. My expectation in this situation is that every available engine will be going to get existing aircraft back in the air. As such, I suspect this will impact Diamond’s ability to deliver any new aircraft which are not far enough along in production to have the engines currently mounted. I will be interested in hearing from Diamond updated delivery dates for customers whose planes haven’t commenced production yet, as this may necessarily impact my future plans.[/i]
As one intending to place an order for a new DA62 next year, I certainly hope not.
My perception of DAI as a company, is that they are capital starved, therefore keeping cash flow rolling is going to be paramount to their survival. They are caught between a rock and a hard place on this.
I heard parts of the webinar this morning but not the whole thing. I hope someone here heard it all and can provide more information. Until then, here are a few snippets:
Service centers and flight school operators were allowed to ask questions but not individual owners. Nice that we were allowed to listen in I guess.
"Over half the fleet is affected." Not sure if he meant engines or aircraft or if it matters.
Some engines have oversized pistons. This can be detected by aluminum in the oil sample. Other engines have oversize pistons and/or incorrectly sized piston pins. The piston pin problem will not show up in the oil sample, but they have determined that the pins are good to at least 1,100 hours. That is the reason for the shortened times before mandatory engine replacement (TBR) even in planes with good oil samples.
The less expensive fix will be replacing just the pistons and some internal parts but they don't have any good ones available at this time. They expect to have new and improved pistons by February, 2023. Until then, for planes that are grounded, they plan to ship existing new engine cores with known bad pistons just to get some planes in the air until better parts are available. The interim engine cores will have the cylinders reworked to match the oversize pistons.
Responding to a question from a service manager of a busy service center who expressed lack of experience opening up a diesel engine, the answer was that replacing the engine core involves disconnecting everything attached to the engine, remove and replace the block then reattach everything. The service manager seemed happy to hear that. More facilities will be capable of replacing cores for "twenty thousand+ dollars" than opening up the engines and replacing pistons for "hundreds of dollars" .
Maybe I misunderstood or missed something but I didn't hear an answer to the question of who pays.
He said the problems are a result of decisions made "3,4,5 years ago" by people who are no longer there.
Current: DA42-V1
Previous: Hang gliders, Paraglider, DA40(x3), Cessna 150 Aerobat, SR22
They have NO good pistons? If you replace an engine core right now you get bad pistons? Doesn't that mean that if you take delivery of a plane right now you get bad pistons?
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
Colin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:32 pm
They have NO good pistons? If you replace an engine core right now you get bad pistons? Doesn't that mean that if you take delivery of a plane right now you get bad pistons?
It sounded that way.
Current: DA42-V1
Previous: Hang gliders, Paraglider, DA40(x3), Cessna 150 Aerobat, SR22
Sounds like a continuation of the downward spiral of bad news for DAI. The Austro engines have been intermittently unreliable for a number of failure reasons as has been well depicted here on DAN since Diamond brought them in-house from Mercedes. As a prospective new buyer or current owner, why would anyone think this litany of issues will improve? Why would I stand in line for one to two years to await a delivery based on this suspect manufacturing quality? I feel for those on the 'list' who now need to deal with this newest uncertainty. Major, and possibly unrecoverable, brand damage being done
Soareyes wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:02 pm
I heard parts of the webinar this morning but not the whole thing. I hope someone here heard it all and can provide more information. Until then, here are a few snippets:
Service centers and flight school operators were allowed to ask questions but not individual owners. Nice that we were allowed to listen in I guess.
"Over half the fleet is affected." Not sure if he meant engines or aircraft or if it matters.
Some engines have oversized pistons. This can be detected by aluminum in the oil sample. Other engines have oversize pistons and/or incorrectly sized piston pins. The piston pin problem will not show up in the oil sample, but they have determined that the pins are good to at least 1,100 hours. That is the reason for the shortened times before mandatory engine replacement (TBR) even in planes with good oil samples.
The less expensive fix will be replacing just the pistons and some internal parts but they don't have any good ones available at this time. They expect to have new and improved pistons by February, 2023. Until then, for planes that are grounded, they plan to ship existing new engine cores with known bad pistons just to get some planes in the air until better parts are available. The interim engine cores will have the cylinders reworked to match the oversize pistons.
Responding to a question from a service manager of a busy service center who expressed lack of experience opening up a diesel engine, the answer was that replacing the engine core involves disconnecting everything attached to the engine, remove and replace the block then reattach everything. The service manager seemed happy to hear that. More facilities will be capable of replacing cores for "twenty thousand+ dollars" than opening up the engines and replacing pistons for "hundreds of dollars" .
Maybe I misunderstood or missed something but I didn't hear an answer to the question of who pays.
He said the problems are a result of decisions made "3,4,5 years ago" by people who are no longer there.
So *just* the engine block comes from Mercedes? Continental and Austro each make their own cylinders? Is there any transparency on this? Is it the result of the new owners being in China and they have selected a (cheaper) cylinder manufacturer in China?
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
Mdm0515 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:53 pm
Sounds like a continuation of the downward spiral of bad news for DAI. The Austro engines have been intermittently unreliable for a number of failure reasons as has been well depicted here on DAN since Diamond brought them in-house from Mercedes. As a prospective new buyer or current owner, why would anyone think this litany of issues will improve? Why would I stand in line for one to two years to await a delivery based on this suspect manufacturing quality? I feel for those on the 'list' who now need to deal with this newest uncertainty. Major, and possibly unrecoverable, brand damage being done
I thought the Austros were almost as reliable as a PT-6 or so "ultraturtle" said.
And the "unreliable" Lycomings just keep on ticking...
Colin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:32 pm
They have NO good pistons? If you replace an engine core right now you get bad pistons? Doesn't that mean that if you take delivery of a plane right now you get bad pistons?
I think that explains why some recently delivered planes are on the list.
