More performance?

[Paul]

O.K., you guys are going to laugh at me but here's something to think about. I had an F1 aerodynamicist at my office the other day and I dragged him out to the hanger. We went over my DA40 and based on our conversation, I found some 3M tape that is very thin, flexible, white and sticks on but comes off without any problem. It’s the stuff the glider folks use (I have it at work and if anyone is interested, I’ll post the part number.) Now I would never tape anything near a control surface but according to my expert, taping over the winglet gaps, the cowling gaps, the ridge formed on the nose gear, access panels that stick into the airflow and fuel door gaps would make an improvement. The beauty of this tape is that you can just peel it up to check oil etc and then put it back multiple times.

Now I used to make a living making cars go faster and I know that there are so many variables that go into horsepower and economy that short of big gains, it is almost impossible to tell if any small enhancement really makes a difference. 1-3 knots could be wind, temp, weight, dirt etc etc but I swear I was faster after I did this.

But please put me down for the turbo version of our 360. I saw this motor at Osh Kosh two years ago in the Lycoming booth. I can think of no reason why it's not available today other than an evil conspiracy to keep my money in my bank account perpetrated by people hell-bent on prolonging the recession through a lack of innovation and new product offering.

[Kai]

O.K., you guys are going to laugh at me but here's something to think about.

Too early. It's only your first post Welcome to DAN!

I have it at work and if anyone is interested, I’ll post the part number.

Yes, please let us know.

Now I used to make a living making cars go faster and I know that there are so many variables that go into horsepower and economy that short of big gains, it is almost impossible to tell if any small enhancement really makes a difference. 1-3 knots could be wind, temp, weight, dirt etc etc but I swear I was faster after I did this.

It would be interesting to find out if there is a way to measure possible speed gains. Maybe flying twice the same triangle course with AP?

But please put me down for the turbo version of our 360. I saw this motor at Osh Kosh two years ago in the Lycoming booth. I can think of no reason why it's not available today other than an evil conspiracy to keep my money in my bank account perpetrated by people hell-bent on prolonging the recession through a lack of innovation and new product offering.

If you desperately want to give your money away, why don't you contact your Diamond sales rep and ask him to kindly prepare a purchase agreement on a D-Jet? You get rid of your money for a while, can dream of jet-power (which is kind of a turbo, too) and you'll know your money is in the hands of someone who needs it more than you.

Seriously, you want a a turbo? We haven't found anyone who is willing to design it and get us an STC for the 20-40 seriously interested buyers. If Diamond doesn't touch it and Turbo Alley and Co. aren't interested, they must have their reasons for that.

[Tommy]

O.K., you guys are going to laugh at me but here's something to think about. I had an F1 aerodynamicist at my office the other day and I dragged him out to the hanger. We went over my DA40 and based on our conversation, I found some 3M tape that is very thin, flexible, white and sticks on but comes off without any problem. It’s the stuff the glider folks use (I have it at work and if anyone is interested, I’ll post the part number.) Now I would never tape anything near a control surface but according to my expert, taping over the winglet gaps, the cowling gaps, the ridge formed on the nose gear, access panels that stick into the airflow and fuel door gaps would make an improvement. The beauty of this tape is that you can just peel it up to check oil etc and then put it back multiple times.

Now I used to make a living making cars go faster and I know that there are so many variables that go into horsepower and economy that short of big gains, it is almost impossible to tell if any small enhancement really makes a difference. 1-3 knots could be wind, temp, weight, dirt etc etc but I swear I was faster after I did this.

But please put me down for the turbo version of our 360. I saw this motor at Osh Kosh two years ago in the Lycoming booth. I can think of no reason why it's not available today other than an evil conspiracy to keep my money in my bank account perpetrated by people hell-bent on prolonging the recession through a lack of innovation and new product offering.

I have done what you did and I swear by it. Listen to your aerodynamicist.
He knows what he is talking about.

[Ralphie]

How about us DA20 guys?

I would like to see a speed cowling and speed pants for my DA20.....

[Antoine]

"Seriously, you want a a turbo? We haven't found anyone who is willing to design it and get us an STC for the 20-40 seriously interested buyers. If Diamond doesn't touch it and Turbo Alley and Co. aren't interested, they must have their reasons for that."

Well well, maybe this is the key here? if Diamond are making the DA50, they may want us to ... upgrade? Well I won't trade my sleek DA40 for a DA50. Don't need the size, don't want the extra weight, and I think the DA40 looks 1'000 times better.

I am convinced there is a market niche for a 200 horsepower, 160 Knot (up high) 4 pax turbo-normalized airplane that is as safe and fun to fly as the DA40. I think the DA40 NG misses the mark in being too heavy, which makes it lose some of the DA40's great slow speed behaviour, plus it has this incredibly ugly lower cowling...

[Chris]

I am convinced there is a market niche for a 200 horsepower, 160 Knot (up high) 4 pax turbo-normalized airplane that is as safe and fun to fly as the DA40.

Sign me up for one of those.

[Jean]

Why not "simply" a 200 HP rated IO-360 like in the Cessna Cardinal,

[Kai]

O.K., let us look at the possible prices first:

a) TAT (turboalley) asks 40k $ for a turbo installation on a C177RG which gives it 25 kts @ altitude.

b) Crewshop.com.au asks $30k for a turbo normalization kit for a Mooney.

c) Exchanging the entire engine to a TNIO 360 from superiorairparts.com with a Kelly supercharger, going experimental until some day getting an STC: $40k plus whatever it takes to get an STC. They claim to give you 44 kts @ FL160: http://tinyurl.com/2a98gf7

Conclusion: market value of these mods seem to be higher than $20k, more in the $40k region.

Technically, we'd need to find a company which is capable and willing to work on this. I doubt they have interest. If they do, they will need a DA40 to work on it for some time. If anyone wants to contact superiorairparts, turboalley or crewshop or any other company, let us know what they said.

Jean, you asked "Why not simply a 200HP-rated IO360?" Well, I don't really see the boost in performance there.

[Antoine]

Why not "simply" a 200 HP rated IO-360 like in the Cessna Cardinal,

Hello Jean
I think the powerflow equipped DA40s are already 200 HP planes. Speed increases approximately with the cubic root of power increases as we know.
So a 11% increase in power (to 200 HP) really buys us 4-5 knots.

However, for a given power output, speed and fuel economy increase with altitude.
So if we could keep 75% of our 200 HP at say FL120, we could probably cruise at 160 KTAS (I'm guessing here) and burn 9-10 GPH.

The other benefit of having 100% power available up high is the ability to climb on top of icing levels.

Now we have to be aware that a turbo-normalized engine will negatively impact performance below say FL60.
See the Cirrus Turbo.

So for Benelux, maybe you're better off with a normally aspirated engine
We in Switzerland, would definitely go turbo...

[Kai]

I think the powerflow equipped DA40s are already 200 HP planes.

Not really. I admit that this is what I thought some time ago. Powerflow does not buy extra horsepower but gives you back horsepower lost with a conventional exhaust system. See http://powerflowsystems.com/exhaust_process.php for further information.

Speed increases approximately with the cubic root of power increases as we know.
So a 11% increase in power (to 200 HP) really buys us 4-5 knots.

I am not a maths-genius myself but if the numbers given were right and assuming a top speed of 2700rpms at standard atm, the equation would probably look like this

{sqrt(200/180)*150}-150=8.1138 kts increase, not 4-5 kts.

Powerflow would argue that the power output of an engine with a normal exhaust might deliver 149 HP and maybe 165 HP powerflow'ed.

{sqrt(165/149)*150}-150=7.8483 kts increase.

Actually, that's what they claim: up to 8 kts for an XLS. See http://www.powerflowsystems.com/product ... d=2&pid=15