22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
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- ememic99
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Re: 22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
It seems that it happened (unofficially) during OEI training with 4 POB.
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Re: 22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
Not the best idea. Training with normal passengers is not a good idea either. It only makes sense if all occupants are training for the same.
- ememic99
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Re: 22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
I don't know anything about the identity of persons at rear seats but I can guess they were students as well. That's usual practice in Europe (I don't know about US), so the others students be better prepared for their class by observing their colleagues. However, such practice is recommended to be avoided for stall recovery training after DA42 accident in Norway November 2021. When I did my ME training the school had strict rules and SOP about training - only student and FI were allowed to board the aircraft regardless the type of flight. And I still believe that's the best setup.
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Re: 22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
Same same, my opinion as wellememic99 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:24 pmI don't know anything about the identity of persons at rear seats but I can guess they were students as well. That's usual practice in Europe (I don't know about US), so the others students be better prepared for their class by observing their colleagues. However, such practice is recommended to be avoided for stall recovery training after DA42 accident in Norway November 2021. When I did my ME training the school had strict rules and SOP about training - only student and FI were allowed to board the aircraft regardless the type of flight. And I still believe that's the best setup.
- CFIDave
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Re: 22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
Stall recovery training in a DA42 or DA62 is no big deal, because it's such a well-behaved/docile airframe. I enjoy showing off "parachute mode" where I throttle to idle, let the plane slow while holding altitude, and hold the stick all the way back into a full stall. While buffeting in the stall, the plane will simply descend in a stable wings-level attitude, with no tendency to drop a wing. (A slower descent than the 1700 fpm descent of a Cirrus under parachute.) To break the stall, all you do is release stick back-pressure, followed by adding power.
What's more dangerous is restarting a shut-down engine on a Diamond twin during flight instruction. Years ago, before Diamond discovered that windmilling restarts would unfortunately stretch an Austro engine's timing chain, you'd simply put the plane into a shallow dive at about 120 KIAS and turn the engine master ON -- the shut-down engine would come out of feather, the prop would start spinning, and the engine would immediately restart. No chance for a stall or spin; very safe and easy to do. But we're not supposed to use this windmilling restart technique any more except as an emergency last resort -- in which case you're required to replace the engine timing chain.
So a different technique is now required to restart an engine in flight: While still operating with one engine inoperative, gently pitch up to slow the plane just enough so that turning the Engine Master ON (which brings the blades out of feather) *doesn't* cause the prop to windmill. This means slowing to 80-90 KIAS. Then engage the starter to restart the engine.
However sometimes if you don't get slow enough, after turning the Engine Master ON -- and the prop comes out of feather-- the prop won't remain fully stopped, but will "clock" where it repeatedly rotates a few degrees, then stops turning, then rotates a few degrees, then stops turning, etc. If that happens you have to time application of the starter just right -- so that you don't apply the starter while the prop is moving and hurt the starter; you want to engage the starter only during a one-second interval when the prop is stopped.
If the aircraft gets TOO slow to make sure the prop doesn't start rotating after coming out of feather, or if you pitch up too much and slow the plane too rapidly, you're asking for trouble. At that point you might stall the plane with asymmetrical thrust (this is before the 2nd engine has restarted), which can lead to entry into a spin.
I almost had this happen during a DA62 transition training flight where I was the instructor: To slow the plane in preparation for engine restart, the new owner pilot pitched up and slowed too rapidly, which (with asymmetrical thrust) caused the plane to start rolling. I immediately stomped on the rudder and pitched down, which picked up the dropped wing and stopped a spin from developing. Based on this experience, I can easily understand how a poorly-executed engine restart might lead to a stall/spin accident in a Diamond twin.
What's more dangerous is restarting a shut-down engine on a Diamond twin during flight instruction. Years ago, before Diamond discovered that windmilling restarts would unfortunately stretch an Austro engine's timing chain, you'd simply put the plane into a shallow dive at about 120 KIAS and turn the engine master ON -- the shut-down engine would come out of feather, the prop would start spinning, and the engine would immediately restart. No chance for a stall or spin; very safe and easy to do. But we're not supposed to use this windmilling restart technique any more except as an emergency last resort -- in which case you're required to replace the engine timing chain.
So a different technique is now required to restart an engine in flight: While still operating with one engine inoperative, gently pitch up to slow the plane just enough so that turning the Engine Master ON (which brings the blades out of feather) *doesn't* cause the prop to windmill. This means slowing to 80-90 KIAS. Then engage the starter to restart the engine.
However sometimes if you don't get slow enough, after turning the Engine Master ON -- and the prop comes out of feather-- the prop won't remain fully stopped, but will "clock" where it repeatedly rotates a few degrees, then stops turning, then rotates a few degrees, then stops turning, etc. If that happens you have to time application of the starter just right -- so that you don't apply the starter while the prop is moving and hurt the starter; you want to engage the starter only during a one-second interval when the prop is stopped.
If the aircraft gets TOO slow to make sure the prop doesn't start rotating after coming out of feather, or if you pitch up too much and slow the plane too rapidly, you're asking for trouble. At that point you might stall the plane with asymmetrical thrust (this is before the 2nd engine has restarted), which can lead to entry into a spin.
I almost had this happen during a DA62 transition training flight where I was the instructor: To slow the plane in preparation for engine restart, the new owner pilot pitched up and slowed too rapidly, which (with asymmetrical thrust) caused the plane to start rolling. I immediately stomped on the rudder and pitched down, which picked up the dropped wing and stopped a spin from developing. Based on this experience, I can easily understand how a poorly-executed engine restart might lead to a stall/spin accident in a Diamond twin.
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Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
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Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- Boatguy
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Re: 22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
That was also my experience in training in the DA62. Fine line between slow enough for the prop to "clock" as Dave put it, and Vmc. Same situation with the Vmc demo. And the restart can easily create a strong asymmetric thrust situation if one is not careful with the power levers. I found OEI training to feel more hazardous than just a loss of one engine which is subsequently secured.
Two weeks before my ME checkride a DPE and applicant in a Baron in an ME checkride went into a flat spin at 4,000' and fell to earth. The picture of the impact is amazing. There is no "debris field". The plane hit the ground flat.
People are dying in training that is supposed to be training them how to avoid dying. Something is wrong here, and it's not necessarily the CFIs, DPEs, their clients, or the airplane.
Two weeks before my ME checkride a DPE and applicant in a Baron in an ME checkride went into a flat spin at 4,000' and fell to earth. The picture of the impact is amazing. There is no "debris field". The plane hit the ground flat.
People are dying in training that is supposed to be training them how to avoid dying. Something is wrong here, and it's not necessarily the CFIs, DPEs, their clients, or the airplane.
- ememic99
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Re: 22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
As you probably read in Norwegian report (additional voluntary reports of unintentional spin incidents), instead of proper reaction when wing dropped, wrong inputs were executed - trying to recover with ailerons or even wrong rudder.
- krellis
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Re: 22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
I'm sure those of you with DA42's or 62's will disagree - but as an outsider looking in - it's the limitations of the Austro engine for inflight restarts that's contributing to the problem. I assume the other diesels are the same and the procedures as described by Dave P. do not seem easy to accomplish for a new (and probably low total time) student.
- Soareyes
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Re: 22-FEB-2023 DA42 crash in Slovakia (Europe)
Thumbs up for the rest of your typically wise and informative post but this common "falling leaf is better than a parachute" trope, often repeated by Cirrus competitors, ignores the forward motion and total energy going into the ensuing crash.CFIDave wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:16 am I enjoy showing off "parachute mode" where I throttle to idle, let the plane slow while holding altitude, and hold the stick all the way back into a full stall. While buffeting in the stall, the plane will simply descend in a stable wings-level attitude, with no tendency to drop a wing. (A slower descent than the 1700 fpm descent of a Cirrus under parachute.)
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